Deep Dive with Rand Fishkin

Intro: Welcome to the Daily Bolster. Each day we welcome transformational executives to share their real world experiences and practical advice about scaling yourself, your team, and your business.

Matt Blumberg: Hi, I'm Matt Blumberg, co- founder and CEO of Bolster. Welcome to the Daily Bolster. Today we are going in deep with Rand Fishkin. Rand is the co- founder and CEO of SparkToro, and I had the privilege of being on the board of Rand's last company, Moz, for four or five years. We got to know him fairly well back in the Moz days. Rand, welcome to the Daily Bolster.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, Matt, lovely to be here.

Matt Blumberg: Tell everyone what you're doing at SparkToro. I think it's going to be interesting for a huge chunk of our audience.

Rand Fishkin: Sure. So let's see. There's probably two things that I suspect are of interest to SparkToro. I'll start with what the product actually is, what the company does, which is audience research. So for example, if you are a marketer and you want to know which YouTube channels you should advertise on or pitch for whatever, a guest spot in order to reach chemical engineers in Los Angeles, SparkToro can tell you that. If you want to know what people who play board games and are obsessed with the board game community, if you want to know what publications they read so that you can sponsor their email newsletters, SparkToro can tell you that. And if you're trying to just build a great persona to reach CTOs in Canada, SparkToro can tell you that too. Basically, any indescribable online group, you can search for them in SparkToro and then we go out and crawl about 12 different social networks, the public profiles on those networks, plus websites and podcasts and all that. We aggregate that up and provide it back to folks starting at about 60 bucks a month. So we try to serve mostly SMBs and agencies as opposed to big folks. If you're whatever, P& G, you've got a huge team that can do this work, you don't need SparkToro, but-

Matt Blumberg: You probably do it better than they can.

Rand Fishkin: Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes. But sometimes I'll see a persona from a very big Fortune 500 and I'll scratch my head and go, " I don't think that's right at all." I almost feel like you could ask ChatGPT and get a better answer. But the other interesting thing that SparkToro does is, so Matt, we raised money in a very unique way. When I left Moz I did not as you know, did not have much money and wanted to start another business, wasn't able to self- fund, but I like the bootstrap philosophy and I wanted to build that type of a business, a company that had very high odds of lasting a long time and being profitable as opposed to the venture model which is sort of very high odds of dying quickly, but maybe returning 10 X, a hundred X the funds. And because of that we went out and designed some documents with our attorney and with some folks in the investment community, and we've open sourced those documents. So if you search for SparkToro funding, three or four startups have already used our funding documents to raise money on their own. And a few startup accelerator programs, including Tiny Seed, which full disclosure, Geraldine and I are investors in Tiny Seed, but Tiny Seed uses SparkToro's structure, which is essentially put money in, once the company makes enough, it pays the investors back, and then everybody participates in profit sharing pro rata for the life of the business.

Matt Blumberg: Interesting.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: That's really interesting. And you participate pro rata based on how much you put in, or does it have to do with how much you put in and when you put it in?

Rand Fishkin: For us, we simplified it. We basically raised one round only at one point in time where the valuation was X. And so whatever you put in, that's how much of the company you own. The post money, just the same way venture would work.

Matt Blumberg: Right.

Rand Fishkin: I think the best way I've explained it to folks is essentially that your stock portfolio, presumably you might hold some public stocks and some of those stocks, whether you do it yourself, you're have an investment professional you'd describe as growth stocks. I don't expect whatever, Google to ever pay me a dividend, but I hope that the stock price will go up a lot.

Matt Blumberg: Yup. And then you have your yield stocks.

Rand Fishkin: And then you have your yield stock. 3M is going to pay you a dividend every quarter on the amount of shares that you own. And that's what we want to be at SparkToro. We want to be your dividend yield stock, paying out year after year for the life. And look, if we ever sell, you're obviously going to make money again, right so there's sort of two opportunities, but we don't ever have to sell. We don't have to engage with M& A World. We don't have to try and raise another round and show the metrics for it. SparkToro grew only about 25% last year, which is actually great for us because our margins grew even more than that.

Matt Blumberg: Sounds good for most companies. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: Yeah, that's so interesting. So I wanted to ask you a bunch of questions about Moz and your experience and lessons learned. And I'm going to start with this one, which was, did you arrive at this through lessons learned through your last company?

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the way I described it in Lost and Founder the book was that I think I had to raise venture at my first company because I felt like if I didn't I wasn't a real entrepreneur. I wasn't-

Matt Blumberg: It's very validating to have someone hand you$ 10 million.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, and it's very... I think that the tech ecosystem, I don't think it's a conspiracy theory, but I think there is a lot of pressure from a lot of people who culturally want entrepreneurs to believe that building a business that does a few million or a few tens of millions of dollars of revenue and gives them and their families and their employees and their customers a wonderful life is, that's the kiddie pool. Oh, you're so cute and adorable. Call me when you want to join the big kids. And they need to use lifestyle business as a pejorative to encourage people like you and I to take their money and go their path. If they don't create that culture of striving and of growth, then the United States economy might be filled with small and medium businesses and happy people, and that would not make billionaires richer. And we can quibble about the pros and cons. I think their... I recognize there are some pros to general economic growth, but I think it's hard to argue that it's better concentrated in a few hands than distributed across many. And the venture ecosystem obvious is concentrating power, generally speaking.

Matt Blumberg: I think what's...

Rand Fishkin: So, yeah.

Matt Blumberg: Go ahead.

Rand Fishkin: No, no, no. So that sort of long, you know Isaac Moz, 17 years, and I think you were at Return Path 20.

Matt Blumberg: 20. Yeah, we did 20. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin: So similar kinds of journeys there and I had some wonderful experiences at Moz. I met some lovely and wonderful people. I think that for a time we had a positive impact on the world of internet marketing and SEO, but overall I am disappointed that I chose the path that I did and I hope that by doing this new company in this new way hopefully we can blaze a trail for more people to follow.

Matt Blumberg: Well, I admire the way you're doing it. I admire that you made it all open source. I'm glad to hear others have downloaded and taken you up on that. I think it's an interesting path. And look, different businesses need different levels of capitalization depending on what they're trying to do. You can't go start a life sciences company and do pharmaceutical research without an enormous bank roll. But as I always say, I feel like we are living in the golden age of the startup. It has never been easier, cheaper, lighter weight to start a business now. And there is absolutely a place for venture capital, but there are also a lot of places where people overcapitalize and it's good to have alternatives out there.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, absolutely. I think even if I would say for a lot of entrepreneurs, even if you believe you're going to be the next whatever it is, Salesforce or MailChimp or whatever you might want to consider starting in a way that requires less hyper growth at less speed, and give yourself the room to find your market and find your place and your footing and get to profitability. Many of the most outstanding, especially software as a service companies, Atlassian is another great example, started with not raising venture, either bootstrapped or invested by friends and family or those kinds of things. And then 10 years, 12 years, 15 years in, oh man, this thing's really taking off. Now maybe is the time to do the venture path.

Matt Blumberg: Right.

Rand Fishkin: And I think that often is a better move for founders, makes people happier, gives venture investors a better return too.

Matt Blumberg: Probably, yeah. Just requires more patience. And I think there is a deficit of patience in the world today.

Rand Fishkin: And tech startup world, if you talk about the list of attributes that are seen as positive, patience is low on the list.

Matt Blumberg: Low on the list. So let's talk a little bit more about Moz. 17 years, obviously some things that went well and some things that didn't go well. One of the things that I think is unique to your experience, at least in the tech world that I wanted to start with is you started the business with your mother. And it's just an interesting question of how did that come to be? How did it work? How did it change? How was it good for the company, not good for the company? Was it good for your relationship? Did you call her my mother?

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, these are all very...

Matt Blumberg: Did you call her mom at work?

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, all very fair questions. And I have talked to a lot of entrepreneurs who have worked with family, often brothers and sisters. Sometimes I would say mother and son is almost the most unusual combination. I know very, very few folks who've done that, but a lot of folks will come up and talk to me about it when I give speeches or whatever. And I think the universal truth seems to be, it's not easy. It creates a lot of challenges. The one that I've heard go well, the one that I've heard go the best is partner teams, so husband and wife or husband and husband or wife and wife. That relationship often seems to work. Not always. Sure, there's plenty of problems, but I don't think the breakup rate is any worse than it is for the average co- founder pair. But in other family situations I think it is much worse. I've seen a few stats around this and certainly my experience would validate that. So the reality is I dropped out of college in 2001 and started working with my mom who was running a small business marketing consultancy, helping people with logo and letterhead and business cards. And I would say it was... My dad, my parents have in some ways a little bit messed up in traditional marriage, and my dad didn't give my mom a whole lot of rope to run her own business. So she was kind of expected to do that in her spare time, along with a great deal of other things. I will give him credit, he did the laundry. So at least there's that. But the reality was that the business that we started working on together which was essentially website design, did poorly. It went deeply into debt. We had to hide the debt from my dad for variety of reasons that I talked about in the book. But yeah, all sorts of messed up family dynamic stuff. And long story short, when we raised money, when venture investors came knocking at our door, it was Michelle who said, " Hey, this is super exciting. Would you ever want to take this to the next level? This is taking off a rocket." And I got very excited about that. But the investor ignition was insistent that I become the CEO and that Jillian, my mom stepped down. She joined the board of directors and was involved with the company until 2012 when Brad invested, and then they did a deal where they bought her out of the business. It was not great for our relationship. It was not great for the business. I don't know. I have a lot of gratitude. I know my mom loved me and still loves me very much and wanted to support me and I wish we would've kept our relationship personal and family, I think that would've been better.

Matt Blumberg: Yeah. Yeah. It's got to be challenging even when it works well.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I've heard stories of it working well, and even then it was tough.

Matt Blumberg: Yeah. So talk a little bit about the journey at Moz. You started building websites, you ended up with an amazing data and crawling asset around search.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: Did you take the advice that you gave at the beginning of this talk of starting small, methodical, talking to customers, winding your way until you got to something that was a big thing?

Rand Fishkin: Yes. But by accident. So I think that the thing about Moz, especially in the early days, it's very hard to look at it and say, " Gosh, Rand and the team made a lot of good decisions." I think we accidentally we made a few good ones, enough good ones to keep us alive and get us to an interesting place. And also timing and riding the wave of search growing, especially at a time when no one really, really no one, Matt, believed in SEO as a business or even as a marketing tactic. But I think it's difficult to remember the way the world thought about SEO in 2005, 6, 7, 8, but it was that spam, it's manipulation, it's never going to last. Google's going to crush it real soon. It shouldn't be a thing, and it won't exist soon. It'll go away. Now, of course, every company in the world has an SEO team and clients and agencies. I think there's more than 4 million people who work in the SEO industry. It's a massive, massive field.

Matt Blumberg: 4 million? 4 million people work in SEO.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah. And most of them are now subscribers to Moz's competitors. So, yeah, interestingly enough, you probably remember the board meeting where we were constantly fighting. Always just this knockdown, drag out fights about was the SEO field big enough? Could it produce even a single public company that was doing a hundred million dollars in revenue? Obviously now it has a few companies, more than a few that are doing that and Moz sort of, I think by virtue of really the fact that I think I surrounded myself, surrounded Moz and the team with a lot of skeptics, SEO skeptics, people who didn't really believe that the field was going to be big enough and that we had to broaden beyond SEO in order to build a company that would return the right kinds of money and multiples to its investors. Yeah, very disappointing. But it's nice to see history validate you, but you almost wish it had gone the other way, at least for your own personal financial benefit. You wish it had gone the other way. Strange feeling.

Matt Blumberg: How did you end up surrounding yourself with skeptics? And is some of that good, but you had too much of it?

Rand Fishkin: Probably. Yeah. Probably, it is good. Ooh, ooh, okay. Here's what I think is the key. You want people who have very little power distance. So I think one of the wonderful things about you and I, for example, is that we share a lot of core beliefs around what's important in the world and we're both deep believers in kindness and in treating people well, and in recognizing the value of teams and not exploiting people. And we might be, we might have some differences on chill work versus hustle, but by and large, lots of shared values on that front. And then hopefully if we were to start a company together we would both want to share a belief about what is the future of this field? What's the thing that we are going to be great at? What's the problem that we're solving? Why are we solving it? Why are we passionate about it? And then we can have lots of disagreements about the how, but if you fundamentally disagree on is this the right field, are we in the right market, are we serving the right kinds of customers, are we building the right kind of product? Those types of disagreements, I think are for people before they agree to do a company together or sit on a board of directors. I think that kind of-

Matt Blumberg: That's a really good point. You want people around you to challenge your assumptions.

Rand Fishkin: Yes.

Matt Blumberg: And to sharpen you.

Rand Fishkin: They show you new data that you haven't seen before.

Matt Blumberg: And you don't want them to not believe in the thing you're doing.

Rand Fishkin: Right. Exactly that. I think it'd been really tough if... What's the name? Reed Hoffman had surrounded himself with people from the video rental industry in the late nineties.

Matt Blumberg: Reed Hastings.

Rand Fishkin: Sorry, Reed Hastings. Reed Hastings, had surrounding himself with people from the video rental industry. They would've been like, yeah, yeah, yeah keep sending the DVDs in the mail, that's the thing to do.

Matt Blumberg: That's the thing. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin: What's this whole cloud? I don't believe in it. You don't want to have to have those, those types of fights. In fact, those types of fights almost broke Netflix. You can read about the stories. I think their chief people officer wrote a great book about what that fight was like and-

Matt Blumberg: Yeah.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: So as you reflect back on Moz, what are a couple of other big lessons that you take away?

Rand Fishkin: Oh my gosh.

Matt Blumberg: And I'm sure that 17 years and there are a lot of them. But whether it's about how to scale a business-

Rand Fishkin: Sure.

Matt Blumberg: How to scale yourself as a leader.

Rand Fishkin: So I am a huge believer that certain people, almost everyone gets energy from certain kinds of activities and has their energy sucked away by others. For me, one of the things that sucks my energy away and that brings me no joy or fulfillment at all, it's just a problem that weighs on my conscience, is people problems. People problems and politics problems. And one of the weird things that modern entrepreneurship allows you to do is to work around the problems that suck energy away from you through, there's two ways to do it. One is you have someone else in your organization deal with that thing so you never have to deal with it, you insource it or you outsource it.

Matt Blumberg: Right.

Rand Fishkin: Or you build a business that doesn't require any strength with that thing. You optimize for, hey, we are never going to need to be good at sales. SparkToro to will never have to be good at sales. We have a landing page, people come to it every day, and five to 20 people sign up for the paid version, and a few hundred people sign up for the free version. It's great. It runs on its own, with almost no support. I like doing support, it's fine, but there's only three of us at SparkToro because I hate people problems and I hate politics. And both Casey and I, when we started this company we sat down at coffee shops and had lots of conversations and basically said, Casey said, " I never want to work at a company with more than 10 people." And I was like, well, I could see my way to 25. But that was core agreement on the thing that we were going to build and what we were going to optimize for. And as a result, there's lots of things that we could do with more people, a sales team for example, that we will never do. It's just, it's not in our DNA. It doesn't matter... But you could have this much money if you had a sales team. I don't want that much money. That's not what I want. I don't mind making more money. I think that's fine. I'm happy to have our investors get more money and us do better and serve customers and all those kinds of things, but I'm not willing to do it at the cost of these. And everyone has these things. So the big thing that I would say I learned, massive thing that I learned from Moz is that you can know yourself, not just your strengths and weaknesses, but the things that give you energy and suck them away and the things that you are willing to sacrifice to get more money and the things that you are not willing to sacrifice to get more money. And I hope the former list is small, and the latter list is huge because I think that's what makes for good people. But whatever it is, you go figure those things out and you find co- founders who share that with you and you go on your mission. And then by virtue of that, what's beautiful is because everyone is different, every entrepreneur is different, every human being is different, we all get a slice of the market. There's lots of people who will never buy SparkToro because they need dedicated sales and support and they want a manager for their account and they want someone to help them structure all their queries and that kind of stuff. And we're not for them. And that's wonderful because it leaves room for someone who is and the same thing's true in reverse.

Matt Blumberg: So I love the premise that it all starts with understanding yourself. And I'm a huge believer in self- awareness as being the root of everything good that you can do in life and with other humans and in companies. And actually reminds me of a blog post you wrote years ago. That's one of my, I think, all time favorite founder blog posts. And I think that the headline or the title was something like, the narratives we tell ourselves. I don't know if that rings a bell.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: But it was so insightful about how important it is to understand yourself, but also how important it's to call yourself out on your own bullshit. And founders and I certainly look like this as well. I think I'm like this, the older I get, the more I'm kind of in my own head sometimes. And that's a tough way to lead a large organization sometimes. So I don't know if you remember that particular post or thought pattern that produced it, but-

Rand Fishkin: If I remember... Yeah, if I remember I got some feedback, especially from one of our other board members, Brad, about that post in particular with... He had different views of the narrative, obviously, which is fine. I think that different people who experience even the same thing can come away with a different story that they tell themselves about it. And I have tried to have empathy to see other people's perspectives while not sacrificing my own saying, " Hey, this is my story. This is my version of this story. This is what I think I learned from it." I think it's okay for other people to have different interpretations. And I also think it's okay for me to be clear on what I think I picked up from that.

Matt Blumberg: Yeah, for sure. And look, it's got to cut both ways. If I think even the bits and pieces of things I know about you, your value system carried into Moz as TAGFEE.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: Right. Your great acronym for your values, which I can probably even remember what all of them were and I never even worked there. Transparent, authentic, generous, flexible.

Rand Fishkin: Fun.

Matt Blumberg: Fun. Empathetic, and... All right, I didn't-

Rand Fishkin: The exception.

Matt Blumberg: The exception. So that's an example of founder driven, you know who you are, you know it's important to you, you're going to drive that through the company.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: The other side of that is, I think one of the chapter headings in your book Lost and Founder is startups carry their founder's baggage. So maybe as our last topic, dig into that for a second. What's the good and what's the bad of the kind of founder driven startup?

Rand Fishkin: So I often think of, there's a common reply on whatever, an Instagram or Reddit or TikTok or YouTube, and that is someone expresses a strong viewpoint about a thing and a comment says, " Who hurt you?" And in a lot of cases when you look at Moz and the way that it was and TAGFEE, you could apply that sort of who hurt you or more broadly what happened to you to make you this way? What are you reacting to or responding to? What are you embracing and rejecting? And those, knowing the answer to those things and knowing that you're doing them and why you're doing them, why was Rand so transparent? Why did I have to share everything, even things that the board really wishes I didn't share. I don't know, Matt, if you were part of it, but there was a two year, almost a hundred thousand dollars legal fight over releasing Lost and Founder, the book.

Matt Blumberg: I think that was after I left the board.

Rand Fishkin: Okay. Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: You were writing it when I was on the board, and then that happened after.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, I'm very glad you missed that part. I don't think that part of the adventure was great for anybody. I think that the new CEO and the board members were very worried about what I was going to put in the book, and they thought it was going to be, I don't know, excoriating and untrue or those sort of things. And of course when it comes out, they're like, " Oh, well this is quite mild. You kind of make us look nice and you make yourself look like the bad guy. That's great. That's fine." I think that the reality here is that there's a set of experiences that we all go through, and sometimes you have to go through them yourself to pick up the lessons from them. But I think a huge part of my goal, even in being transparent nowadays with SparkToro and what's going on there is you might be able to avoid some of the mistakes that I made, and I hope that I'm avoiding some of the mistakes that my predecessors made, and that hopefully over time we can all stand on each other's shoulders and build something better and more wonderful than what came before. I think that's the... I have so many complaints about modern capitalism. I think it's just deeply problematic in all sorts of ways. But my favorite thing, my absolute favorite thing is the freedom to put your labor where you want, in the way that you want. So if I'm working, I was working at a retail clothing store, and then my mom's clients started needing web designs so at night I was learning to make websites and while I was sort of half paying for school and also working at the Wizards of the Coast Game Center selling magic cards and Pokemon and whatever, and I could do all these different things and then decide to get into web design, and then when that was failing, learn how to do SEO and put my labor there. And that freedom and flexibility for those of us who have the privilege and opportunity is a really beautiful thing. But in addition to where you put your labor, it's how you put it. I think entrepreneurs often feel like this is the way to start a company, but there is no this way. You can do it however you want, baby, the world is yours.

Matt Blumberg: That is certainly true. There are lots of different types of entrepreneurs out there with lots of different approaches, and they've all been successful and they've all failed.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah, and you don't have to listen to the judgment or the pressure of a particular ecosystem, and you can surround yourself with people who like you and what you're building for what it is. So much of my Moz journey was about trying to fit in, wanting to fit in, wanting to... A huge part of this, so embarrassing, Matt, but a huge part of me was I want to speak on stage at TechCrunch and have all the other entrepreneurs look up to me. Why? Why did I want that? I don't know what it is about being a dude in your twenties. Is it like the testosterone and the feeling of not being good enough? Is the Jewish thing? I don't know. It's just, yep. Well-

Matt Blumberg: Human beings are-

Rand Fishkin: At least I'm overcoming that.

Matt Blumberg: Human beings are complex and evolving animals.

Rand Fishkin: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Blumberg: Let me close with one last question for you. So one piece of advice, and if you have two or three, that's okay, but one piece of advice for founders and CEOs about scaling, whether it's scaling their company, scaling themselves as leaders, scaling their team, their board. One piece of advice for founders about scaling.

Rand Fishkin: Gosh, all right, I think we've already talked a whole lot about do you need to scale? So let's assume that the answer to that question is yes, I need to or want to scale, that's part of my goal. I think the next logical thing is many, many folks carry assumptions and beliefs about what scale means. Scale can mean a lot more customers. It could mean a lot more market penetration. It could mean a lot more revenue. It could mean a lot more dollars per existing customer. It could mean a much bigger team, a wider array of products. And I would invite you, I would ask you to sit in the uncomfortable creative zone of not giving an answer for a while before you choose which one of those or ones of those you need to scale. Do you absolutely need to hire lots more people to achieve the thing that you want to achieve? Is what you really want to achieve more revenue? Is it more revenue through more customers doing the same thing they're doing today? Is it more value per each customer and they're all paying you more? Are you going to get rid of most of your existing customers and move to upmarket, to people who are going to pay you much more for the thing that you do? Are you going to build new product lines? I would just invite you to sit in that space and not block out any of the options and consider the ones that you might have rejected or not assumed were part of scale before because it turns out weirdly, so SparkToro is a very strange company in a whole lot of ways. When I tell people these things they're quite skeptical. But SparkToro is doing very nicely, growing, it's very profitable, has extremely nice margins at gross and net, kicks off a lot of cash every month, which is great. And it has three employees, myself, Casey, and Amanda. It is serving about 1500 paying subscribers and over a hundred thousand free users. It gets no search traffic at all. I know that's weird because I used to be a SEO guy at Moz, we get no search traffic. Literally, if you look at our Google search console, you'd be like, what's going on? It's just people searching for your brand name. You don't rank for anything. It's true. We rank for nothing. And I think weirdest of all, the thing that really surprises people is we optimize to try and work about 25 to 30 hours a week, sometimes less, and we try and build a company that requires very little work from us. This is what I'm talking about when I say there are ways to scale. One of the other things that I think, do you need the speed? Do you have to reach the number that you said you were going to reach next year? What if it took you two years or five? Would that be, could that still be okay? Are there ways you could make that okay? If you have a billion and a half dollars of interest on your debt payment for the company that was only making 900 million, probably not okay. Unless other companies, unless you own Tesla and SpaceX, in which case you can bleed for a long time. So yeah, I would just invite folks to open their minds about what's possible, because a lot of things that you think are impossible... I'm not that impressive an entrepreneur and I can do these things, I promise you can do these things too.

Matt Blumberg: Of the things I've always appreciated about you Rand is you're willing to challenge orthodoxy and sometimes orthodoxy needs to be challenged. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with our audience and founders. Good to see you. I appreciate you being here.

Rand Fishkin: Likewise, Matt. Thanks for having me. Take care.